April 2026 Economic Updates

Kirsty McGregor: Hello, and welcome again to Capitalise's Economic Update, a roundup of the key economic and market activity affecting UK business owners.

Well, last time I recorded this was with our CEO and co-founder of Capitalize, Paul Surtees, and it was the 18th of February. And little did we know about what was going to happen a short 10 days later. We did talk about the price of oil being important to the UK economy, but yes, little did we know what was going to happen. And then, in the past week, we've actually spent a lot of time talking about the impact of the Iran War and the Middle East in detail on two special Lunch and Learn webinars, which we ran for both our accountancy channel and also our direct business subscribers. So, if you haven't seen those already, please do go and dig those out. We give a lot of suggestions, a lot of information, and hopefully ways in which we can help you as business owners or accountants. They'll be on our Capitalize YouTube channel, so go and grab those if you haven't already seen them. And I know it's going to come up today as we talk through the economic situation at the moment in the UK, but today we're going to do something a little bit different. We've invited Paul Wilson, Policy Director of the Federation of Small Businesses to give his views and his findings of the FSB community of small business owners. Now, Paul is extremely experienced, having been a civil servant, first of all, himself, and then he's been in policy ever since, across a range of topics, not just business, but has been with the FSB for 5 years.

So, welcome, Paul, great to have you on the call, appreciate you being here today.

Paul Wilson: Good morning, great to be here.

Kirsty McGregor: Now then, let's get straight into, the energy issue. And last month, the FSB wrote about the energy cliff edge for small businesses. And given recent geopolitical shocks, do you think that risk has simply evolved, or do you think it's now become more structural?

Paul Wilson: So, I mean, for the last 4 years, energy's been a really significant cost line for small businesses ever since Russia invaded Ukraine, and we saw the impact on gas prices and then electricity prices. And actually, what we were talking about when we were talking about the cliff edge was the upcoming increase in the standing charge bit of the bill, so the non-commodity bit of the bill, not the actual electricity wholesale bit, but the other bit, because new grid investment costs are being passed on from this year. We did a bit of analysis, looking at what that would mean for a typical small business, and we estimated that would mean that your standing charge would go up by an average about 44%, which is really huge. You know, imagine another, sort of, 1,600 quid for a small restaurant or a small hair salon. And actually, that… you're not necessarily protected from that, even if you're in a fixed contract. You know, we're hearing energy suppliers are reopening fixed contracts, which, you know, within the terms of those contracts, they are allowed to do in order to pass on those extra costs. So that's the thing we were talking about then. And actually, that's why we called on the government to do what they did in last year's budget for households, and move some of the other costs, the other policy costs, and specifically. Something called the renewables obligation cost off of bills, or at least move a proportion of those renewables obligation costs off of bills. Now, of course as you've just alluded to in the introduction, and as we've been discussing a lot recently in any policy discussion, we've got the consequences of the Middle East crisis now, and we're seeing that in terms of further rises in wholesale electricity prices, further rises in wholesale gas prices, so the problem with grid investment costs hasn't gone away, the problem with other policy costs hasn't gone away, but you're now seeing all aspects of a bill rising, and it, I would say, makes it even more important.

The government looks to step in and help small businesses who, you know, don't have much leverage when negotiating with a big energy supplier, help small businesses with some of those costs and move… the renewables obligation costs off of bills, and then you know, the other big impact that we've seen as a result of conflict in the Middle East, in terms of impact on small businesses domestically, is fuel.

And this has been even more stark, actually, than on electricity. You know, you've got diesel costs up, we estimate, by around 34% since the start of the crisis, petrol costs up by 19%. And what that means is, if you're, you know, driving a small van for your business, you've probably seen about another extra 500 quids worth of annual costs come in if those prices stay where they are for the next year. So we've said to the government, actually, we think it's time that the government introduce a temporary cut to fuel duty in order to help small businesses and households with those additional fuel costs. Temporary in the sense that it should only be in place as long as prices remain significantly inflated due to the conflict that we're seeing at the moment, and hopefully affordable from a sort of public finance perspective, because the government will be getting some extra money in on VAT for every litre of petrol and diesel that they sell, so we think that needs to happen. We're proposing a 5p cut to fuel duty, a further 5p.

Kirsty McGregor: Yeah, it's definitely something that the Chancellor seems to be coming under more pressure to do, doesn't it? So, hopefully, that will come about. And I know she's already announced the BIC scheme, the, industrial British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme. Where do they come up with these titles? But I don't think that's really going to help small businesses by reading the detail behind it, does it? So, maybe if this carries on much longer, you know, they will have to do something, more.

Paul Wilson: And I think you're right about bigs. You know, the vast majority of businesses, large and small, won't be helped by the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme. It's there for a relatively small number, I think about 10,000 manufacturing or energy-intensive businesses. It's an important scheme for those businesses who will qualify, but it doesn't help the majority, and that's why we have.

Kirsty McGregor: And it's also about reducing the tariffs and the add-on costs that go in to their bills, and it seems like it's very much more for those that are importing or exporting as well, so… Yeah. Anyway, it's something, but let's see what comes next. So please do keep up that pressure. I'm sure everybody on the call will appreciate that.

So, look, we've not only energy costs going up, we know wages have been going up, we are worried about interest rates maybe going up again at some point, instead of on the trajectory of downward rates that they were on. So, look, small firms are very exposed at the moment, but as you've just said, you know, they're not going to really benefit from BICS, for example, and how much in the market, how much pricing power do they realistically have left? Especially if energy contracts are being reopened, for example. They've got very little power, haven't they?

Paul Wilson: Well, I mean, for the vast majority, that's right, and that's what our evidence is telling us. I mean, obviously, we're talking 5.7 million SMEs, including self-employed, so there's incredible diversity within that, and some will have significant pricing power, but what our evidence is showing is that not only firms are feeling a sort of squeeze on costs on the one hand, but on the other hand, they're unable to really recruit that through raising extra revenue, and in fact, around half of small businesses told us in our last quarterly confidence survey.

The, they're expecting revenues to diminish, actually, at the same time as those costs are rising, so that really is putting them in a squeezed position, and you're right, it's numerous cost lines coming together at the same time, so we've talked energy, we've talked fuel, you've got employee costs, and, you know, we did a bit of analysis looking at if a small employer had 9 employees, and let's say, just for the sake of the hypothetical, they're all on the national living wage, well.

Two years ago, that would have cost around 200 grand a year. Now, it's more like 225 grand a year. So essentially, what used to pay for 9 employees now probably only really pays for 8 essentially. And that's probably one of the reasons why we're seeing a lot of small firms cope with some of these, cost pressures, not purely by raising prices, although there will be a bit of that, but they've also had to look at headcount. You know, reducing headcount, maybe reducing hours worked by their staff, or opening hours, and things like that. You've got new statutory sick pay costs that have come in as of April, as sick pay becomes a day one thing, and as the government removes the lower earnings limit, so that could be another grand, we would estimate, a year for an average small employer, but it will fall very unevenly, depending, of course, on how regularly, your staff are off sick. And then the other really significant cost line for a number of firms is, of course, business rates, something that firms find really hard to understand, for very good reason, because it's unbelievably complicated, the business rate system. And as of the last revaluation, and as of the loss of the 40% retail, hospitality and leisure discount. Small firms within those sectors, retail, hospitality, and leisure, so, you know, shops, cafes, restaurants… I'll put pubs to one side, because they've had a bit of extra help, but aside from pubs, they'll be seeing a 52% increase in their business rates bills over the next 3 years, so they can see those looming cost increases coming in. It comes in over 3 years, because there's a bit of transitional relief, so that it doesn't all hit at once, which, of course.

It's a good thing, but really, that's a a bad cocktail of cost increases, and you can very well imagine how that will particularly hit a lot of high street businesses out there. So, you know, not something that we can afford to ignore, because it's really vital for the future viability of high streets, that actually we don't keep piling these extra costs on, and that's why we're calling on governments to take a range of actions to mitigate those increases.

Kirsty McGregor: Yeah, I think as well, in due course, I think there's going to be a bigger inquiry into what's going on with these business rates this year, because you talked about the transitional relief there, and I don't know if the local authorities actually understand what they're supposed to be doing, because having seen some businesses in the press, and also some businesses I know locally, and across the local authorities in my area in West Yorkshire. I know that they originally got a huge, huge bill, which is a real shock of them then pushed back against that with the local council, then they were able to get some sort of discount. And I don't know if it's that the local authorities have calculated it wrong in the first place, and not actually given that transitional relief, or if they found another pot of money from somewhere that they didn't expect to be able to use as some sort of support. But it's very strange what's happening, you know?

And of course, it's down to the business owners to make that approach, and to be, you know, quite persistent about it if they do want some support. So, yeah, more work to do there, I think, on the business rates, and maybe you want to pick that up as well with what's going on around the country, because it seems really strange.

Paul Wilson: Yeah, well, it's… I mean, it's not ideal if, you know, the system is so complicated that a small business that needs to put in a challenge will often need to rely on professional advice.

In order to be able to do that, and then you're paying an intermediary, and then, you know, you're… you're talking about it being unclear the reasons why certain local authorities are taking certain decisions or adapting their approach, and I can't obviously speak to that, but this has long been a problem within business rates. It's just so hard to kind of get your head around why your bill is what it is and why things are changing. I'll give you another quick example, actually. Shared office spaces, that's another one where, you know, we're hearing from firms either operating shared office spaces or operating out of shared office spaces, which is a great model, by the way, and a great way for a small business, potentially a self-employed person, to take their first step into having a business premises. Now, they've been… many of those have been hit with backdated business rates bills. It used to be the case, it used to be clear that each business within it could benefit from something called small business rates relief, which essentially probably meant that they weren't paying any business rates, and that the bill for the overall office was significantly lower. Now, it looks like the valuation office agency changing their mind in terms of how those rules are applied, and all of a sudden, you've got big, backdated bills that actually it's impossible to recover from tenants, and may make it unaffordable for small businesses to use those shared office spaces. And again, I don't mean to keep coming back to high streets, but it's going to affect football on high streets if people go back from working in shared spaces to working from their homes.

Kirsty McGregor: Yeah, well, we can definitely see it in the town centres around me, as a lot of, even, like, hairdressers and barbers, and they're choosing to work from home, and we're going to have so many empty properties on the high street soon, so that will be definitely another campaign that local authorities are going to have to get the high streets back.

So, looking at the central government policy landscape now, we've talked about energy support a little bit, you mentioned business rates there, and also access to finance, but across the whole package of support they have.

Where do you think… let's be… let's be nice to them for a little bit, you know, where do they… where do you think they're doing really well, making a big difference, and where do you think there's still gaps and they're missing the mark?

Paul Wilson: Sure, well, and important to call out the stuff that they're doing well as well, because there are those elements, and I think the small business plan that was published last year was great. It was really wide-ranging, and I think it really spoke to everyday small businesses, the challenges that they face, and had some good solutions in there. And I'd call out two particular elements of that, I think, are particularly positive, and that the government have followed up on strongly, one of which is on late payment. I think we'll talk a bit more about this later, but it is an absolute pain for many small business owners is being paid late or having to chase money that they would do, and there's a really ambitious package there. I think it was the standout bit of the small business plan. And another bit that I think the government has been really strong on is SME procurement. You know, government's spending, I think, around £400 billion a year on procurement. There's just a huge opportunity there to get more of that money directly to small businesses in communities.

And also indirectly, actually, to make sure that they're getting opportunities through public sector supply chains, and I think, you know, Cabinet Office. Chris Ward, the minister there, has been really strong in leading that work, and that's something where we hope to see a real positive change made. So there's two of the really positive bits that I would draw out.

Kirsty McGregor: Yeah, I think I agree about the SME procurement. I do hear… we've got to balance this as well, though, not to be a naysayer again, but they sometimes there's requirements put on these small businesses in order to be able to be a supplier into the government or associated health service and so on, in that whether it's, you know, cyber essentials they have to get in place, or whether it's some other health and safety, or some other insurance, or some other diversity, or… you know, I'm keen that there aren't extra costs layered on the small businesses, and that, in reality, it does work, and it does mean that these smaller businesses can become suppliers to the country's largest departments and spenders. Are you seeing any of that? Cause a problem?

Paul Wilson: So I think the Minister is very conscious of that risk, but it has all… it's, you know, long, long, long been a risk with public procurement, that government has a number of very well-intentioned things that they're trying to achieve through public procurement, whether that be, you know, things like carbon reporting, having a carbon reduction plan, if you're going to put in a bid, whether that be having a certain level of insurance in place, and I think the danger is that if you're not very methodical around checking what your requirements are, particularly for smaller contracts that SMEs can credibly bid for, you end up just inadvertently excluding them. Now, you know, there have been some good changes in the last few years. Like, it used to be the case that bidders were required to have certain insurance in place at the point of bidding, and what that meant as a small firm is you wouldn't even bother putting in a bid, because actually you got to speculate through the purchase of a potentially very expensive insurance policy, which you may not even end up getting the contract. And just simple things, simple changes the government, the last government made through the Procurement Act, have meant that actually now you no longer need to have that policy in place, unless you are, in fact, successful, at which point it becomes a good thing, and you can buy it, because, you know, you've got the contracts. And so, I think you're right to really caution against those, extra requirements and extra policies being applied to small firms, because there is such an advantage to getting SMEs to win contracts in the first place, with all of the sort of investment that they have in local jobs, local communities, and things like that, so I think you're absolutely right.

Kirsty McGregor: Yeah. And then where do you think they're missing the mark, then? Let's call them out for what else you're trying to do.

Paul Wilson: I mean, we've spoken about business rates, and I do think that the sort of the announcements made at budget last year did miss the mark. We've seen the sort of change for pubs, which was absolutely essential to give pubs a fighting chance, but there's so many other retail hospitality and leisure businesses that I think need a comparable level of help. It can't be right that they're the ones, small retailers, small hospitality business, small leisure businesses are carrying such a big burden of increased business rates going forward. And I think the other area that's particularly challenging for small firms is around employment. We've spoken to the cost side of things, but you've also got the kind of employment rights, make-work-pay package, and I think there is a real risk with that. That what it inadvertently does is piles lots of extra requirements onto small employers who are conscientious, doing the right things, but potentially doing it in quite an informal way their staff, and all of a sudden, you tie them up in extra process, and they end up tripping up on things that perhaps don't improve their overall staff experience. So I think that's something where, you know, we've had the Acts passed, there was a really important change made on, the qualifying period for unfair dismissal, six-month qualifying period. I think it's vital to encourage hiring, that there is a chance, you know, to deal with it without immediate recourse to the tribunal system within those first 6 months, but there's lots and lots of other proposals within that that I think will be quite hard for small firms to deal with, and could have a chilling effect on hiring, and we are seeing some of that, and we're hearing a lot of concerns from small firms. And then I think, of course. You know, it's not all black and white, it's not all good and bad. There are some things in the middle, in terms of what government are doing, where there's got some good ideas, but a bit more work required on the execution. So the one I would call out there is regulation, where actually there's quite bold intent from the government to cut regulatory burden, which we hugely welcome, but doing that is actually really messy, and what works for a large firm in terms of cutting regulatory burden doesn't necessarily work for a small one. You know, a large firm might need more flexibility. They might really welcome principle-based regulation. They might, you know, have a compliance team that can help them navigate those grey areas. Whereas a lot of small firms, and for some of them that'll be true, they want certainty, and the way you cut cost and time is by giving them clarity on what they need to do, not vagueness. So, I think that's an area where I'm actually quite optimistic that the government will get there, but it's not necessarily easy, and we need to translate that ambition to cut regulatory burden into something that we know will practically make a difference for small firms.

Kirsty McGregor: I think you're absolutely right. The difference as well, that the governments tend to… successive governments have tended to see SMEs as a single unit, but there's such a difference between the micro-business that only has one or two staff, the small business that might have 30, 40, 50 staff. And then the medium business, which may have 200 staff. You know, the ability of those different sizes of businesses to… to engage with regulation, to find, you know bid for contracts to make the most of any grants and supports and subsidies that are out there that need to be applied for. There's a huge diversity there, and to really, I suppose, you know, FSB's always been great at fighting for small businesses, but the government need to understand, don't they? They're very different types of body between those, within that category of SME.

Paul Wilson - Federation of Small Businesses: 100%, and like I say, I think the small business plan did a brilliant job, and the government showed an incredible understanding on that front, but you sort of mentioned that I was a civil servant in a previous life in introductory remarks, and it just won't be the case that all of the different teams developing policies that touch on small business will have that brilliant understanding across Whitehall. Some will, some won't. And it's about really building that, building that understanding, building it up for regulators as well, and making sure that their offer works for businesses of all shapes and sizes. It works for those who are looking to really scale up quickly, and it works for those who are looking to just sort of stay where they are, basically. It's really vital.

Kirsty McGregor: Yeah. I mean, it's been quite good to see… I work quite a lot with UKRI in Research and Investment, Innovate UK, and so on, and they are going through a complete overhaul at the moment of their departments and their budgets, and their approach, and so on, policy. And, it's been, you know, really good to see that most of that has carried off… carried over from the last government. So, these are huge things that take a long time to change, culturally, as much as, you know, through the paperwork and the regulation that if it, you know, if we shift on, five years is up in no time for a government, but whichever government comes in next, hopefully this will still continue, and I think… I think both the last government and this one did have similar approaches in terms of cutting regulation and, trying to, you know, support small businesses. So, let's see where we get. But I know you've done quite a lot of surveys at the FSB, you're fantastic at this, and what are you seeing around whether… I mean, put the Middle East to one side a little bit. We'll see where that goes, and obviously that could have a huge impact on our economy. But would you… prior to even the Middle East-Iran war starting, were you seeing that businesses were still in survival mode, or have you seen them much more interested in growth and investment? And, you know, what were you finding was still holding them back, if anything, at that point?

Paul Wilson: Yeah, so, again, and I'm going to be guilty of the generalising that we've just said is not such a great thing, but in terms of what our survey's showing us, it is showing a lot of businesses are still very much in that survival mode. So one of the questions that we ask every quarter is, what are your growth expectations over the next 12 months? And actually, we're seeing 30% of small businesses saying they expect to contract in size or close over the next 12 months or so, whereas only 21% are expecting to grow. And, you know, we've been running this survey for, gosh, yeah, 15 years now, and it's actually Vvry unusual for it to be the case that the percentage expecting to get smaller is bigger than the percentage expecting to grow. So, for many, it is still survival mode, and actually, on that question, then, of investment that you mentioned, you know, we've got 36% of small firms saying they expect to decrease investment in the next quarter, and only 17%.

So around 1 in 6 expecting to grow it. So that is bad, that's worrying for productivity, and it's worrying for growth, and it's worrying for other things like, you know, the net zero transition, which does require investment in order to be able to… to… to do that for your business what is it that's kind of holding small firms back at the moment? Well, I think it's… for me, it's three interrelated things for many of them. First off, the cost squeeze, and we talked about that ad nauseam, so I won't go back on that. Second, I think there's just this lack of confidence, and this will be exacerbated by conflict in the Middle East in terms of the overall economy, in terms of consumer confidence, and in terms of then the medium-term growth prospects for a business, which I think makes you more reluctant to potentially take a risk when it comes to investing. And then thirdly, I think there is a particular barrier within finance at the moment, which is that a lot of company directors, when they apply for a loan will be asked to provide a personal guarantee for that, and what our evidence shows is for around 60% of them. They won't be prepared to invest in their own growth, to borrow, to invest in their own growth, if they do have to put personal assets on the line. And so I think that's a barrier that, you know, we've long said does need to be looked at, and just to be clear, personal guarantees play a really important role in enabling access to finance, but we just believe that they are being too widely requested, and are having quite a chilling effect on investment and on borrowing, so we would like, and indeed the government are looking at that in terms of, you know, the British Business Bank and what it can do through its programs, but we do think that needs continued attention in order to encourage people to invest.

Kirsty McGregor: I mean, the beauty of my role is that I get to speak to the funding specialists who are on the front line of conversations with lenders at, with lenders and with, with business owners at, through the Capitalise platform.

And certainly, at the end of last year, we saw that it was still very much in exciting finance reasons. They were coming for growth. And then it did start to turn to a little bit more crisis funding, or where they're in difficulties. So, you know, I'm sure we will see that even more over the next few months as the ramifications of the war land on our shores through our business chain, supply chains. But the exciting thing that is happening in the finance world, and we've seen a lot of this, is that due to open banking, there are some fintechs that are out there who are not the Tier 1 high street banks, because they are always the last to change.

But the challenger banks and the fintechs are coming up with ways to get their security in other ways, and to assure themselves, as I'm sure you've seen through the papers that have been going out through the government. And yeah, those that can use open banking means that they don't necessarily have to take a PG. So we do see that a lot as well, that there's always some reluctance to take a PG. I think sometimes it's down to education, and once the business owner understands why they're being asked for a PG and what it actually means. It doesn't mean that, you know, you miss a bank… you miss a repayment and your house is taken off you. You know, there's a lot more steps before it gets to that stage. But the fact that once there are other products out there now, and other lenders out there now, who aren't necessarily needing the PGs, and still, that doesn't ramp up their interest rates to ridiculous rates. So, let's hope technology continues, to improve the way that lenders are managing their own book and their security.

So, let me come down to a final question. If I was to put you on the spot and say, if you were to get one of your policies changed over the last… over the next 6 months, 12 months maybe, that's going to improve business owners, conditions, above all others, what would it be and why?

Paul Wilson: Late payment. Has to be late payment. You know, I mentioned that was what we felt was the standout bit of the small business plan, and we would love to see, and really strongly hope to see, a late payment bill thought for by the government in the King's speech. You know, let me outline why it is such a problem for small business owners. You know, our evidence shows that two-thirds of small businesses suffer from late payment in any given three-month period, so it's affecting a huge proportion of the overall small business population. It causes stress, it causes cash flow problems, and actually, you know, linking back to our previous conversation, a small business that finds itself being paid late is twice as likely to have applied for finance as one who isn't, so it's costing money and time in terms of finance applications. And actually, the Department of Business and Trade put out some really interesting analysis around a year ago, and through… I think it was the Small Business Commissioner team, that showed that 38 businesses close every day because they're not paid on time. So, huge impact, and if you are paid late, you'll likely spend, on average, 86 hours a year chasing payments, so there's a huge, kind of, cost to productivity and the time of you and your team there, so we were really pleased to work closely with the Department for Business and Trade on their consultation on late payment, and, you know, just to highlight some of what I think are the most important changes that they have said they will introduce.

So, if you are in a large business that is a frequent late payer, your audit committee or board in the future will have to explain why, and you will have to set out a plan to fix it. So, it can't be an issue that you know, doesn't hit the board's radar, it can't be buried in the detail, and that should help make it a board-level problem, and therefore hopefully drive culture change.

At the moment, there's a lot of flexibility, sorry, around payment terms, so while, theoretically, there is a law saying that payment terms shouldn't be longer than 60 days, it's possible to negotiate out of this, and plenty of big businesses do do that as a matter of course, and the government's saying, actually, we're going to make that 60-day cap a lot harder, so it's impossible for a large company to impose 90-day, 120-day payment terms on a small supplier. And I just want to emphasise in the context of that. I'm not saying 60 days is prompt payment, it's not, but a lot longer than 60 days is totally unacceptable for us. 30 days and less is prompt payment, and that's something that we will continue to put pressure on firms to move towards. Two other things I'll flag, you know, what was quite a wide-ranging package. Small Business Commissioners, so the Small Business Commissioner's Office is there to help small firms who are paid late, but at the moment for the small business commissioner to be able to investigate, they have to receive a complaint from a small firm who's paid late. Naturally, a small firm is very reluctant to make a complaint against potentially their biggest customer. So, in the future, the government has proposed that the Small Business Commissioner can independently instigate investigations, so it's not just up to the small firms to make the complaint, and actually there's plenty of published information on payment speed and payment times of large firms that they already have to report that the Commissioner can use. I think that's really welcome. And the last thing that I would flag up is that interest will become mandatory at 8% above base rate if you're a late payer, meaning that it will be a costly mistake to pay late, and it won't require the smaller party to enforce that. That will just automatically be applied, so I think what I'm expecting that package to do is basically take the onus away from a small firm who has been paid late to have to chase up all of these consequences for the large firm, and make it much more automatic, and make it… basically, it simply won't pay to be a late payer, and hopefully, therefore, we'll see a really significant change as a result of the bill that we really hope to see in the King's speech.

Kirsty McGregor: And you, you were saying that, you know, there is going to be… I was… I was concerned that, oh, it's going to be a slap on the wrist for these large companies, and it is really only going to apply to the largest companies, isn't it? So if you're… if you're a small business owner trading with another small business owner. That's much more difficult and less likely to come under this scope, that's right, isn't it, I think.

Paul Wilson: So, the rules, I mean, complicated answer is different rules will apply in different ways, depending on your business size, but a lot of what I've, spoken about, things like audit committees, things like, board focus, that will apply to the largest companies, and the 60-day rule, will apply when buying from a smaller, supplier, so essentially then you absolutely cannot negotiate out of the 60 days. Others of the rules will apply to small, small, contracts as well. So it is… it's a mix, and I think it's right, you know, businesses of all sizes should pay promptly, that's, that's, that's right.

Kirsty McGregor: Absolutely, yeah. I've charged late payment interest before to another small business, and I got paid it, so but it is it is about the education, isn't it, really? Just the awareness. And yeah, interesting then that you were saying that it's not just going to be a slap on the wrist and audit committees have to report, and so they could the large companies could actually lose their ability to to have procurement contracts with government, is that right?

Paul Wilson: Yeah, so that's actually a rule that's in place at the moment, and I think what we need to see is it really being enforced. There are really good things in terms of public procurement rules. First off, you've got to have 30-day payment terms, so that's a requirement of the Procurement Act. But secondly, there's a government rule that says you should not be awarded a public contract. If, on average, you are taking longer than 45 days to pay small firms. And actually, that's not just within your public sector supply chains, that's in terms of all of your payment practices. But what we need government to do is actually really start strongly enforcing that and saying to big businesses, some of whom are out there with publicly reported data showing that they're longer than 45 days, actually, do you know what? You are disqualified from this particular bidding opportunity until you've turned that around, and then you know, we spoke about the £400 billion that's spent on procurement. Well, everyone wants a piece of that pie. Then we will see real change really fast, I think, if government are prepared to strongly enforce that.

Kirsty McGregor: I agree, I agree. Well, let's keep an eye on what happens with that over the coming year. Let's hope it makes a real difference, and… and the… obviously, it takes time to get these bills through government, and… but let's watch what happens in the King's Speech. I would put a plug in there for Capitalise for Business. I've got a Credit Risk Manager as well, a platform which enables businesses to credit check, credit score, their customers.

So keeping on top of your own credit control, and really not allowing this to get out of hand putting pressure on from the get-go, I would say, would also be recommended. But look, if… in the meantime, if any businesses out there do need support around funding and credit, then do please contact us at Capitalise, and we can support wherever we can. And look, let's see where we are when we record again in June where the world is up to at that point. But please, Paul, do keep up the great work that yourselves and the FSB are doing, and thank you once again for joining us this morning.

Paul Wilson: Pleasure.